Monday, 20 September 2010

So I got bored and disproved god.

Okay, before I start out, let me make two things clear:
1. This is only a proof against certain Gods, such as in Christianity and Islam. It is not a proof against many other religions, or the deistic God. It is also not a proof that atheism is true, for this exact reason.
2. In general, the proof only applies to an omnipotent, omniscient God, who created the universe and gave us free will. If the God you believe in does not fit that description, then this proof does not apply to you. (But feel free to reply anyway, of course!)

Summary of the proof:
It is not possible for there to exist an omnipotent, omniscient God, who created the universe, to have given us free will. Such a God cannot exist.
Therefore many religions, including Christianity, must be false.


The full proof:
P1 God created the universe.
P2 God is omniscient.
P3 God is omnipotent.
P4 Humans have free will.

#1. At the instant of creation, God already knew everything that would ever happen in his universe. (By P1 and P2)
#2. God designed the universe in exactly the way he wanted it. (By P1 and P3)
#3. Everything that ever happens in our universe is exactly what God intended. (By #1 and #2)
#4. Everything that ever happens in our universe is/was God's choice. (By #3)
#5. The outcome of every choice you ever make was already predetermined by God. God is responsible for everything. (By #4)
#6. You are not actually responsible for any of your actions; at best, your free will is an illusion. (By #5)
#7. Humans do not have free will. (By #6)
#8. Contradiction. (By P4 and #7)




Common false responses to this proof:
A"#4 is wrong, because God gave us free will!" - No. You are missing the point entirely. #4 follows directly from #3. Unless you can explain how it actually does not (or explain why #3 is false), it is illogical to simply claim "but God gave us free will, therefore #4 is false".
B"But you already assumed that God gave us free will, so of course it makes sense to do that!" - You don't seem to understand how logical proofs work... Here's another simple example of one:



P1 All cows are black.P2 Daisy is a cow.P3 Daisy is white.

#1 Daisy is black (By P1 and P2)
#2 Daisy is not white (By #1)
#3 Contradiction (By P3 and #2)

Can you see how I have not used P3 anywhere in the proof, except in the final conclusion that there is a contradiction? Do you agree that the logic is all correct, and that it follows a very similar pattern to my original God proof? It is NOT logical to say "#1 is wrong, simply because it disagrees with P3"!

Now look back at the original God example. It is the exact same thing, pretty much.





C"But God exists outside of time, so there is no contradiction." - Huh? This is an extremely common response, despite it making no sense whatsoever. God being outside of time (which, I agree, is true) is irrelevant. It makes no difference to the logic in the proof.
D "(Due to quantum physics) our universe is NOT predetermined, therefore God didn't choose everything..." - This is a red herring. If God does not know the outcome of any quantum events, then he is not omniscient. Hence we can still conclude that the universe is all predetermined; even if it appears random to us.
E "God COULD know what choices we are going to make, but he chooses to block that own knowledge from himself" - If this is true, and God is forced to block his own knowledge of things, then he is not omnipotent.
F "The future does not exist. God does not know things that do not exist. Therefore God does not know the future" - Another red herring. God must know the outcome of every single event in the universe. He knows exactly where every atom in the universe is. He knows exactly what the future will be, even if this future "does not exist, yet".


That's it, for now. If any other incorrect responses come back, I'll add them to the list.
Until then, feel free to make me look like an idiot and prove me wrong. If you can. 

39 comments:

  1. nice post! Please check out and follow my SC2 strategy blog =)

    http://zergitup.blogspot.com/

    ReplyDelete
  2. read it all, if there is a god, it's probably you. good post

    ReplyDelete
  3. Hah, good stuff. Should post this on a Christianity forum just to see some of the ridiculous responses.

    ReplyDelete
  4. i had a little trouble understanding this .. but good post nonetheless

    ReplyDelete
  5. Very nice post, you are a man with logic

    ReplyDelete
  6. Spread this around. It's a very good post with even better logic behind it

    ReplyDelete
  7. Your rocking peoples world views man!

    Sweet.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I find it funny this post is making ads for Scientology pop up on your blog.

    ReplyDelete
  9. god dosent anywhere fuck the concept of space and time

    ReplyDelete
  10. but the real question is...does god fuck?

    ReplyDelete
  11. Yeah I got an advertisement about Mormon mothers, wtf.

    Good post, though. They can disregard science to their hearts content, but it's difficult to dodge logical fallacies.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Cool!
    Followin n supportin!:)
    Check my blog!

    ReplyDelete
  13. sick deductive logic... i took a class similar to this...

    ReplyDelete
  14. Atheism is a moral imperative. It takes courage to take a stand, I look forward to more posts!

    ReplyDelete
  15. Wow, that's crazy. Someone used to say to me, replace "God" in the bible with the words "big black box" and then see how smart you sound.
    Hahahaha.

    Twitter.com/CawlinForReal

    ReplyDelete
  16. I try to avoid any religious discussion.. it's almost impossible for anyone to be right

    ReplyDelete
  17. Very interesting post, reminds me of a philosophy class I had a couple years back.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Interesting posts you got here man!

    ReplyDelete
  19. Meh, not necessarily... The whole matter may be above our comprehension.

    Though I (in general) agree. Religion is just a bunch of nonsense people started spewing long ago...

    ReplyDelete
  20. awesome post. i agree completely

    ReplyDelete
  21. This still leaves a possibility for non-omniscient, non-omnipotent god(s) to exist, such as those integral to ancient religions. Which means that they are logically possible than Christianity :P

    ReplyDelete
  22. There will be awesome discussions! I just need more people! Come visit my amazing blog about the safety of the internet! :D
    http://alowlytroll.blogspot.com/

    ReplyDelete
  23. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Clean outline of logical reasoning, I definitely love this post! Too bad most Christians wouldn't follow logical thought like this.

    ReplyDelete
  25. I am going to start by saying that I'm not a Christian, and actually personally choose to believe that notions of a physical god are missing the point of spirituality. The whole notion of a god is to point towards something else that can't be described or known.
    That said, couldn't God's omnipotence create a being that is simultaneously bound and unbound to it's power and omniscience? That way, free will both does and does not violate omniscience, which for an omnipotent god, should be no problem. Because, an omniscient god should also know, knowing everything, what it is like to not know.

    ReplyDelete